Idle Thoughts--Kudos to Karlen 7/15

[Luciaphile]

I apologize for the absence.  It's been a combination of summer, work and the reading I'm doing for my YA class.  There's been some real life stuff too.

Anyhow.

Fashion notes first . . .

Poor Lara Parker.  After Cassandra's multitude of attractive clothes, she gets stuck in a handful of godawful ensembles the likes of which I really don't want to see again.  Is this part of the character's punishment?  Being forced to wear the ruffled cocktail dress from hell?  Or is this what happens when La Bennett is coming back from v-kay and wants the wardrobe goodies back where they belong?  I want to know

The brown suit of Mr. Collins needs to go.  It is just too shiny and too icky for words.

Joe's windbreaker matches the blue candles at the Old House (not a criticism, merely a comment).

This is not going to be a fun-filled, sarcastic commentary.  So if you're looking for that, maybe you ought to back right out of this one.  I may have some acerbic things to say, but I think I'm going to get serious here . . .

Onto the show.

Oh.  My.  God.  I tell you, I sat down and actually watched today's episodes and it was just sickening.  And no, it wasn't the clothes (although the ruffled dress was pretty bad).  It was the absolute absence of any kind of human decency in this plot.

I've seen this part of DS before.  Maybe it's because I haven't really been watching the show in the past two weeks and I happened to sit down and watch it today.  Hell, maybe it's something else in my life. Wouldn't be the first time.

It's not just that these characters are too damn dumb to live.  I'm used to that.  

I think it's John Karlen's fault.  He was the shining light in these two episodes.  He was playing the only character with any humanity today (except for Crothers but he's not really involved with the Experiment so he doesn't count).

I like to think that there are some things in life that are too morally abhorrent to contemplate, let alone do.  I also like to think that if you're back is up against the wall and someone is telling you to do these things, what you need to do is to say no.

You say no and then you come up with a better choice.

Has Adam really got Barnabas and Julia with their backs to the wall?  Um.  No.  There are alternatives here.  Barnabas is just too damn stupid and self-involved to even bother to look for them and Julia is mired in some kind of sick dependency kick to grow a spine.  

In fact, let's talk about Julia.  WTF is she still doing in town?  Is this supposed to be like a battered woman thing?  Or having killed someone has she just lost it?  She's obviously feeling guilt, but there's nothing beside that.

"I no longer know what's right or wrong.  I only know what is necessary."

That pretty much sums up Julia.  What kills me is that this is not necessary.  And that it's the character's bloody business as a doctor and as a human being to relearn just what the hell is right and wrong.

She knows better.

Maybe it's because we've left Campy and gone into some sort of weird amalgam of Weird Tales and Frankenstein and Karlen just did his job too well on those days.

An aside to all of the fanfic writers out there who have this burning desire to give Barnabas and/or Julia children.  This episode is an object lesson as to why that is a really, really bad idea.

In a way, Karlen made watching this bearable and in a way he highlighted what is so discomforting to me about Barnabas and Julia.  Barnabas keeps getting creepier and creepier (and he hasn't hit bottom yet).

Willie, the ex-con, is the only one who sees just how wrong all of this is.  

Why do they need Willie?  Barnabas got them into this mess.  You'd think he could dig his own damn graves.  

What a disgusting thing to do to Willie and to Maggie by threatening her (although Barnabas will get worse on this score.

And lastly, Barnabas has dug himself into his own private hell.  Julia's stupid enough to stick around--why does he feel the need to drag Willie into it as well?

Karlen--he was absolutely right on target with the part, the lines, the horror, the resignation, the despair.  

Crothers is another one who really did a superb job.  I have to admit I kept hoping that he would just dismiss Angelique as the freak that she is and run out of there, but then we wouldn't get to see him doing some of the best acting he did on the show.

In reference to Joe, "I have the feeling something strange is going on."  An ex-vampire is planning to put together dead body parts and he thinks that something strange is going on . . . things that make you go hmmm.

Someday I'd like to see (I know this will never happen, but I can dream, can't I?) just maybe to see someone just be sick.  You know with like the flu or a cold.  Honest-to-God sick.  In Collinsport.  With maybe some snow or rain.

Sorry this is so dark a commentary . . . it just was something that I had to say.

Luciaphil

[Raineypark]

OH THANK YOU.....THANK YOU......THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You do it every time, Luciaphil!

You say EXACTLY what I would if I were a better writer.

May I point it out again, even though you already have?.....Willie Loomis is almost the only soul in Collinwood not in imminent danger of eternal damnation.....and John Karlen's portrayal of a man who's mind betrays him, but who's heart does not, is so finely crafted I could weep watching it.

For those of you who never quite "got" what was so special about Willie/JK to those of us love them.....THIS is what is special.  

THIS performance illuminates the difference between kids learning their acting licks on the job, and a trained, stage-and-TV-experienced professional.

THIS is what happens when a very talented actor, who understands every nuance of his character, gets handed cheap wine for dialogue, and turns it into Estate Reserve.

THIS is what I saw him do on stage.....play a trapped young man, desperate to please his unhappy parents, unable to help, unwilling to flee.....his emotional suffering was physically palpable in that theatre and I'm sure it was in the studio when they videotaped this.

Okay....deep breath.....climb down off soapbox carefully......Sorry, Luciaphil....didn't mean to rant all over your post......just so damned happy you posted one!!!

Rainey

[Nancy]

Luciaphil, loved your write up though I didn't see the episode in question.  I remember the storyline though.

Didn't Willie declare that he just couldn't rob a grave?  Messing with dead people - it was gross, it was wrong?

What the heck was he doing when he found Barnabas?  

At any rate, Willie was always the moral compass of the show his previous "life" notwithstanding.   This is definitely true.

Nancy

[Carol]

Didn't Willie declare that he just couldn't rob a grave?  Messing with dead people - it was gross, it was wrong? What the heck was he doing when he found Barnabas?

  He was in a different mindset back then. All he could think of was money that Jason kept promising but it wasn't forthcoming so if he could get his own, without Jason ever knowing that he had his own windfall, well, then, so be it--even if he had to pull the rings off of skeletons he'd do it. He was that desperate; he didn't have a moral compass

Once bitten, though, he does a complete turnabout. It is almost as if Barnabas drained all the evil out of him. His stay at Wyndcliff left him more traumatized since we do not know what happened to him there but if he was spouting off about "evil from the grave" then we can assume he endured electro-shock therapy to knock these thoughts out of his head.

What we have left is the Willie we now see: trapped yet longing to leave but having nowhere to go; helpless yet wanting to save his Maggie from further harm. Julia and Barnabas have literally put Willie between the proverbial rock and a hard place. The only thing the poor guy has left is self respect and J&B want that, too.

At any rate, Willie was always the moral compass of the show his previous "life" notwithstanding.   This is definitely true.
Nancy

Yes, he was the moral compass, Nancy.  Luciaphil and Raineypark--I couldn't have said it better myself. Kudos to the both of you.

[Luciaphile]

I think it can be argued that Willie, Barnabas, and Julia all undergo substantial growth in character--the direction of said growth is not always positive, but it's there.

Willie starts out as a petty crook, disgusting and greedy, etc.  

I think though, that after he's bitten, Willie hits bottom.  He gets to that private hell that's always a possibility for all of us.  Unlike Julia or Barnabas (or even presumably Angelique), he finds, I guess, some kind of decency within himself.  Whether that's salvation or further torment, I dunno, but he has it.

I would also posit that robbing graves for loot, despicable as it might be is still a step up from robbing them, dismembering body parts and reattaching them to make a body.  

Luciaphil

[Raineypark]

So the character of Willie is the one who illustrates descent, suffering and redemption?

Would you agree, Luciaphil, (or anyone else...feel free to jump in!) that achievement of, or, conversely, the failure to achieve, redemption, is the central human story?  Or at least, the story told most often?

Isn't it odd that Barnabas, who began as an "unholy" creature, (but one who despairs at his condition and regrets his every despicable act), has become morally indifferent, at best,  truly evil, at worst.  Was that the intention, do you think?  To show that human evil is, in fact, the true evil?

(gawd, I haven't had this discussion since college!!!)

Raineypark

[Nancy]

I believe the character of Willie Loomis is one of the most interesting on the entire series because of his constant struggle.   Karlen is a marvelous actor.  But just as I can understand how a bad person can become good through horrific circumstances, I can equally understand how a good person can become a bad or at least a morally dubious individual through horrible circumstances. It doesn't make any sense to me to have  more empathy for someone like Willie because he eventually became good and moral and no empathy for Barnabas who was a decent person (not perfect, no one is) and under equally horrible circumstances had his very humanity taken from him and changed for the worst. He had family members assualted and even killed in the bargain - all within a very short time of one another.

Luciaphil, since I didn't watch the episode you wrote about, I really didn't know that Willie was being asked to dismember anyone. I assumed that was being left to the doctor since it would require (I would think) special skills.  It's been a while since I've dismembered anyone, so I don't remember.

I have empathy for anyone whose basic nature is radically altered.  It's like being murdered.  You might as well be murdered.    Sure, we can argue that it takes great character to resist changing for the worst, but that is assuming that one still has all his marbles left or has emerged from a major trauma without anything resembling brain damage.  I don't buy the criticism about Barnabas for the simple fact that if he were a real person and someone we knew, we would be more understanding of *why* he becomes increasingly self-serving and even callous in many situations.  I don't think the character was right in the head after being turned into a supernatural being and never recovered from the experience.  The whole back and forth of being a vampire has to affect someone's brain and thinking.  We are accepting of the person who is suffering a brain tumor and their behavior is altered for the worse but we can't find any empathy for someone who is turned into a vampire and compelled (like an addiction) to drink blood?  You seriously don't think that would radically affect someone for the worst?

I had members in my family who served in WWII and were on the front line.  They were trained to kill.  When they returned home, that training did not leave them.  No, they never killed anyone outside of the war,  but they admitted to family members it was far easier to get into scrapes with other people than it was before they left because they were trained to channel their adrenlin in another way.    How do you think it would be for someone like Barnabas whose entire body chemistry is changed by vampirism with the instinct to kill?  That instinct just doesn't go away and I don't care how human Barnabas becomes, Plan B will always be to kill the obstacle.  Whether or not he actually goes through with the plan each time is one thing, but the instinct to do it is something he is used to having.

We can constantly argue that you should battle to do the right thing but that is more of an intellectual argument than one based on how things really work in the brain and how trauma affects our emotions.  One's understanding and perception of right and wrong can change.  It's what mental illness is all about.  We see Barnabas struggling to do good things and he did throughout the series.  Barnabas did a lot of no-so-great things too but that is part of the struggle afterall and what makes for good drama.  I had empathy for the character for that reason.  But, even though I had empathy for the character and enjoyed watching him, I would never want to really know someone like that.  So I never admired him in that sense, but I empathized with the struggle.  That kind of struggle was at the heart of the series.  IIRC, Angelique eventually tried to change and now Nicholas is falling for Maggie.  Willie struggles to do the right thing while being self-serving too by trying to not get killed by somebody for not doing awful assigned tasks.  

I can't explain Julia so I won't go there.

I'd like to see anyone go through what Barn did and emerge the same as he was before.   Willie emerged as a different person (a better person) as a result of his "trauma" and a decent person can turn evil as a result of horrible circumstances too.  I don't think such a person deserves less empathy simply because the results were not an improvement on his character.  If we don't intellectualize the characters too much and really walk in their shoes in our imagination of what it must be like to be that way, I think there's a chance to arrive at a different conclusion.  I think understanding Barnabas and having empathy for him comes from thinking of what it would  really be like to walk a mile in his shoes rather than guage his behavior against a measuring stick of how he *should* be.

Nancy
(who is putting off unpacking boxes from a move of 6 weeks ago anyway she can).

[Luciaphile]

You'll have to forgive my non-technical terms here; it's been a good long while since I debated philosophy

It's not that I'm not sympathetic to Barnabas' situation.  To a certain extent I am.  He may not have behaved toward Angelique with the greatest of judgment, but he didn't deserve what he got.  The punishment didn't fit the crime.

On the other hand, okay, it's done.  He's not a vampire for this storyline and since then he's behaved fairly reprehensibly and irresponsibly.  Barnabas is not David.  He's a grown man and I think society tends to expect certain things from adults.  I'm sorry, but sh*t does happen and it doesn't excuse everything.  

We have sentience and we live by moral and legal frameworks.  They may be different for certain cultures, but there's usually a basic concept of right and wrong out there.

If someone is sociopathic and just don't care, then they are mentally ill, and as such deserve some compassion, but sociopaths (at least from what I remember from Psych 101) feel no guilt.

Barnabas does.  So he's not a sociopath.  He may (IMHO, he does) have some other problems, but he never makes any conscious effort to change.   Moreover he's pressuring Julia (although that's a topic for another post entirely) and Willie into this abhorrent game he's playing.

Willie has done what Barnabas hasn't.  He's recognized (from early on) that this is not an acceptable way to live.  Back in the first arc with Barnabas when they'd heard Maggie was "dead," he told Barnabas that they had been wrong.

Barnabas: You're forgetting that my existence has certain requirements.

Willie: That girl's death wasn't part of them.

In some respects, I think that sums up what I'm trying to say.  

Willie has learned his lesson.  He doesn't want to keep doing these types of things, and instead, he's being pressured/threatened/coerced/blackmailed into doing them.  Pick one of the above--Barnabas did all four.

I think the irony is that Willie of the three characters is the one that conventionally would not be expected to have this kind of moral conversion.  Julia and Barnabas, educated and so-called "civilized" people, we expect that they should know better.  

That's in answer to Nancy

Raineypark wrote:

So the character of Willie is the one who illustrates descent, suffering and redemption?

Would you agree, Luciaphil, (or anyone else...feel free to jump in!) that achievement of, or, conversely, the failure to achieve, redemption, is the central human story?  Or at least, the story told most often?

I had not thought about it in those terms, but you're probably right.  

Luciaphil  

[Nancy]

You'll have to forgive my non-technical terms here; it's been a good long while since I debated philosophy

It's not that I'm not sympathetic to Barnabas' situation.  To a certain extent I am.  He may not have behaved toward Angelique with the greatest of judgment, but he didn't deserve what he got.  The punishment didn't fit the crime.

On the other hand, okay, it's done.  He's not a vampire for this storyline and since then he's behaved fairly reprehensibly and irresponsibly.  Barnabas is not David.  He's a grown man and I think society tends to expect certain things from adults.  I'm sorry, but sh*t does happen and it doesn't excuse everything.  

True about expectations but this does not address the theory that what happened to him previous to all this did not leave any lasting "damage" that Barn will forever have affect him.  And my argument isn't about excusing things as much as about according empathy and understanding even those whose life changes were not for the better.  As you know, I don't have much patience for professional victims and if someone's life is screwed up because of a variety of circumstances, I will empathize with them and understand their behavior but it doesn't excuse it.  

But Willie has not been through anywhere near what Barnabas has though he certainly had his body chemistry screwed with.  There's no comparison. Based on both of their histories, if I had to pick which one was a candidate for being unstable, I'd pick Barn.  Mentally ill people do have pangs of guilt under a variety of labels.  Willie could leave.  If Barn is not a vampire and not able to control Willie emotionally in that old vampire way, I don't understand why Willie doesn't just leave.  Someone said that Julia even told him he could if he wanted.  But he didn't.   If this whole business is so abhorrent to Willie, why is he still there?  He's not a kid either and already knows doing things for Barn is usually bad news.   If there is some crucial element I don't know here please tell me as it's been ages since I've seen these eps.   If we can say "Barn shouldn't continue being a b**tard since he is not a vampire" we can also say "Willie does not have to stay if he feels he's being pressured to do something horrible.  He could leave because he knows this is wrong."

However, we are able to debate and have fun with this because we don't have to really deal with any of these people in real life.  Besides, you know how much I like being contrary.

Nancy

[Dr. Eric Lang]

Luciaphil: I'm glad you found the time for more comments, I always enjoy reading what you have to say. What are YA classes, BTW?

Yup, there's no denying it . . . this story line is simply dreck. It is highlighted by great performances, such as John Karlen's as you pointed out, and by Thayer David and Humbert Allen Astredo too. But the basic premise is unbelievable dreck. I think DC's desire to capitalize on the popularity of monster-rip-offs was his own undoing. The Dracula thing works, the Frankenstein thing does NOT.

I thought about you when I saw Barnabas in that hideous brown suit so your timing was quite coincidental! He is beyond redemption for his cruel and unusual treatment of poor Willie. No wonder Willie gets the Willies just thinking about robbing a grave . . . look what happened to him the last time he tried that!!

I have no idea why Julia is still in town. You would think they could at least come up with some plausible explanation for her presense. Or do they all think she's still writing that dumb book that no one has seen even a page of?

As for Joel Crothers, he was good. This twist gave him a chance to shine. Joe's reaction to having been bitten was odd, much like that of other vamp victims on the show. It's almost like the reaction of a rape victim, with the added peculiarity of being filled with a desire to be used again by the attacker. But the shame, the humiliation - his scenes with Nicholas and Barnabas afterwards - very much like after Willie got bit. I wish Crothers had elected to stick with the show. It would have been great to see him as other characters in 1897, 1840 and parallel time.

[Raineypark]

Nancy, I have to disagree with your claim that Barnabas deserves as much, if not more, sympathy than Willie for the suffering he has endured.  Granted, he never deserved what he got at Angelique's hands.....but he endured and survived that experience with some humanity and decency intact.  He regretted his actions and despised their necessity.

It seems only now that he is human that he has lost his ability to empathize with those around him.  Instead of reaching out to his family members and embracing them, sharing in their lives and making them welcome in his, he resorts to ever more deceit and depravity.

He didn't despise Willie Loomis because he, Barnabas, was a vampire and Willie was human.....he despised him for attempting to rob Naomi's grave. He recognised an immoral act and despised it.

Now, he doesn't give a damn about the woman who's body he insists Willie disentomb.  He doesn't care if Willie is arrested or sent back to Wyndcliffe.  He doesn't care if Julia has her medical license revoked, or is hounded out of the community.  He doesn't care if his family is disgraced.  His behaviour is solely focused on protecting himself.  He must prevail at all costs.  He doesn't even attempt to confront Adam himself.  He uses Adam's threats as his excuse, but he's unwilling to put himself on the line.

I'm not sure at this moment in the show if he and Julia know that Barnabas can't live without Adam.  If they do, he had only to threaten Adam in return: kill Vicky Winters and I'll kill myself, and you with me.  If he doesn't know, he should have treatened to kill Adam himself.

But he does none of these things.

Of course, we always have to remember that all these characters are at the mercy of the writing of this show.  It's particularly appalling right now and I hope it gets better real soon.  I think I may have stopped watching the show right about now, the first time around, so all of this seems new to me.   If I stopped watching at this point, I'm not surprised.  

Rainey

[Luciaphile]

Luciaphil: I'm glad you found the time for more comments, I always enjoy reading what you have to say. What are YA classes, BTW?

YA=Young Adult (ages 12-18 ).  I'm in library school and I'm taking a course on resources for young adults so I can be certified to work in a public library.

Side note--we were talking about our own adolescence  and people were asked what TV shows were popular when they were teens.  A bunch of people mentioned DS and running home to catch it!

As for Joel Crothers, he was good. This twist gave him a chance to shine. Joe's reaction to having been bitten was odd, much like that of other vamp victims on the show. It's almost like the reaction of a rape victim, with the added peculiarity of being filled with a desire to be used again by the attacker. But the shame, the humiliation - his scenes with Nicholas and Barnabas afterwards - very much like after Willie got bit. I wish Crothers had elected to stick with the show. It would have been great to see him as other characters in 1897, 1840 and parallel time.

As much as I like David Selby, I would have loved to see what Crothers could have done with Quentin.

Luciaphil

[SWAMPWITCH]

Dear Luciaphil,
I enjoyed reading your Idle Thoughts...they are wonderfully wicked!
 
I LOVE Angelique's ruffly clothes though..I would love to find some of the old clothes worn by some of the cast of DS!  
SwampWitch

[Nancy]

Nancy, I have to disagree with your claim that Barnabas deserves as much, if not more, sympathy than Willie for the suffering he has endured.  Granted, he never deserved what he got at Angelique's hands.....but he endured and survived that experience with some humanity and decency intact.  He regretted his actions and despised their necessity.

Hi Rainey!

I didn't say in my last piece (I don't think I did) that Barn deserved more sympathy; I had said he had been through far more than Willie had.  Does this excuse anything? No. But right now, neither Willie or Barn are under any curse or under a spell yet BOTh of them are  in the thick of it doing this Bride of Frankenstein thing. Willie is just as guilty as Barn and Julia.  None of them can claim being under a spell.  

It seems only now that he is human that he has lost his ability to empathize with those around him.  Instead of reaching out to his family members and embracing them, sharing in their lives and making them welcome in his, he resorts to ever more deceit and depravity.

Isn't Barnabas being threatened here?  From what I read, he has been told his family would be destroyed and Victoria would die as well.  And that threat is coming from a warlock who has supernatural powers and Barnabas does not have anything like that to combat him?   He's trying to protect his family, isn't he?

He didn't despise Willie Loomis because he, Barnabas, was a vampire and Willie was human.....he despised him for attempting to rob Naomi's grave. He recognised an immoral act and despised it.

I never got the sense Barnabas despised Willie.  I don't think I ever head him say it.   I do recall that into the series the two developed a warmer relationship.  Willie was Barn's link to the outside world and for awhile the only person who knew about him.  When Barn came out of that coffin, he acted like an animal because that is what he was. I don't think that instinct driven into him when he turned into a vampire, ever completely left.

HNow, he doesn't give a damn about the woman who's body he insists Willie disentomb.  He doesn't care if Willie is arrested or sent back to Wyndcliffe.  He doesn't care if Julia has her medical license revoked, or is hounded out of the community.  He doesn't care if his family is disgraced.  His behaviour is solely focused on protecting himself.  He must prevail at all costs.  He doesn't even attempt to confront Adam himself.  He uses Adam's threats as his excuse, but he's unwilling to put himself on the line.

Am I wrong in believing Barn's family has been threatened with extermination if this experiment doesn't happen?  If I am right, then yeah he is solely focused on his own thing because he doesn't want his family killed.  He's been through that kind of thing once already.  He can't stop Nicholas who has the power. He can't go to the police and say, "See, we  have this warlock neighbor who is threatening us."  What extent would you go to if your family was threatened and by a force no one believed existed?  And would you consider yourself self-centered for feeling that way? I wouldn't.    

I'm not sure at this moment in the show if he and Julia know that Barnabas can't live without Adam.  If they do, he had only to threaten Adam in return: kill Vicky Winters and I'll kill myself, and you with me.  If he doesn't know, he should have treatened to kill Adam himself.

Assuming of course that Adam would have believed Barnabas in the first place.  And if Barnabas killed Adam, that would have been yet another murder.

Of course, we always have to remember that all these characters are at the mercy of the writing of this show.  It's particularly appalling right now and I hope it gets better real soon.  I think I may have stopped watching the show right about now, the first time around, so all of this seems new to me.   If I stopped watching at this point, I'm not surprised.  

Good point.  Soaps are designed around the stupid things people do and not the smart things.  Soaps revolve around characters who make poor choices and ther reason for that is the poorer the choice, the more material writers have to go with, lol.   Most of the popular soap actors are the ones with an edge.  Luke and Laura became major soap stars and very popular even though Luke had "raped" Laura.  How could something like that just be glossed over? I think most people are more forgiving and tolerant of the horrible things fictitious characters do because it's not real and they are not in any position where they have to make any decisions or judgments about these people.  They are there for entertainment. I could not and would not scrutinize a character on a soap or other program because they are there to entertain me and I take what entertains me and leave the rest.

But it's fun to debate stuff at times too.  It will never change anyone's mind but it's good exercise.

Nancy

[abbeymarch]

Oh, Raineypark, we're so used to the ranying and raving. Please don't apologize. It's one of the things we love best about you!....
That's why one writer called him (JK), and I think I quote, a very talented young actor. Of course they picked that other guy (Mr. President), instead .
That performance WAS riveting. We were wrapped up in it's reality.
There were alot of good actors doing bad stuff on that show. Really if Mr. Frid wasn't so good at his job, could you have loathed & detested Barnabas SO much?
abbeymarch